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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Joined the forum a while back almost a year ago, but only recently acquired one!

Started with a well-used beat up pre-gen Ninja 250R 3 years ago, man I love that bike still have it. The 14k wail is a lot of fun though, without ever really mustering up much acceleration, haha. It's a hoot. But the carb can be problematic, and it's pretty low power. I really wanted something that felt a little more powerful on the freeway.

Unfortunately bought (and sold) a used FZ6R, apparently famous for horrible seat. It was super snappy on the freeway ... but after 20-30 minutes I was hating life on that thing. So painful I flat stopped riding it.

Then I checked out the Ninja 300, but in my opinion, the R3 is much closer to what I would call a "modernized pre-gen Ninja". It's just not stretched out like the latest Ninja, and the R3's seat is more comfy. The moment I climbed on the R3, I was like, hot dayum ... this ... this fits so well ... though I was actually there to check the FZ-07. What I like about the R3 is that I don't need to change anything out of the box to really enjoy the bike! It just fits correctly.

Saw some fancy angel/devil headlights in the forum yesterday that look nice, might make a nice project.

Anyway, mostly I ride around the Modesto, CA area. Up through Oakdale and Sonora. Sometimes down to Merced. Eventually I'll get it over to the Bay Area, problem is I don't have a private garage in the Bay Area like I do in Modesto.
 

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Yeah, the R3 fits me really nice, too. I also like the FZ-07. I almost had to flip a coin to decide which one to get. But in the end, after long and careful consideration, the R3 was the better choice for several reasons. No regrets. I really like it so far!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I called the dealership back that said they wanted to get me in for a test ride yesterday, but today they said there was no demo FZ-07 currently, so that would turn into a high pressure sales situation if they set a bike up just for me -- I told them I bought R3 and that was the end of their interest over the phone. But I'd like a second bigger bike too ... maybe Ninja 650R or the coming SV650. R3 scoots down the freeway, but maybe I don't want to do 900 miles on it for a long trip, lol. The FZ-07 wouldn't be that bike either anyway, so oh well.
 

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I told them I bought R3 and that was the end of their interest over the phone. But I'd like a second bigger bike too ... maybe Ninja 650R or the coming SV650. R3 scoots down the freeway, but maybe I don't want to do 900 miles on it for a long trip, lol. The FZ-07 wouldn't be that bike either anyway, so oh well.
Yeah, funny how those "dealerships" operate. They really aren't in the business of "helping" people. They just want to take your money. I can't stand dealing with those places. It's a shyster business.
:|
I didn't buy my R3 to go on long trips either!
( You are right, FZ-07 would be a crummy trip-bike too. )
 

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xorbe

Have you considered the CBR650F? Beautiful bike. It's a bit more expensive than the Ninja 650R, but you do get an inline-four, and IMO a much better looking motorcycle. Definitely has that big bike feel, reminds me a little of my 2003 GSXR.
 

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Yeah, funny how those "dealerships" operate. They really aren't in the business of "helping" people. They just want to take your money. I can't stand dealing with those places. It's a shyster business.
:|
I didn't buy my R3 to go on long trips either!
( You are right, FZ-07 would be a crummy trip-bike too. )
Out of all their shady practices, the one that annoys me most is when they call you over to their side of the desk - to show you (on their monitor) that they're not making any money on the sale. Not only are they not making money, they're losing... Poor, poor dealer :crying:. Here, let me throw some money your way to make it all better. Shysters... I understand dealers are running a service, and they deserve to earn something for that service, but I can't stand the patronizing BS they try to feed customers. Be honest, and I'll gladly throw money your way.

I know how I'm going to deal with them come next bike purchase...
 

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Welcome to the R3Life. I was also considering the Ninja 300, but the dealer wouldn't take my $5500 cash offer (since it had ABS). It was a left over 2015 too. So I went to Simi Valley Cycles in Simi Valley, Ca and told them $5000 OTD and they said ok without any issues for my 2015 R3. I have no buyer's remorse. Only issue I have is trying to justify spending $1500 for full adjustable suspension. Good thing I only weigh 160lbs. Preload at 4 is ok even on tight canyons. The front suspension is ok. I've taken her to 85mph and feels stable even with the stock tires.
 

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Out of all their shady practices, the one that annoys me most is when they call you over to their side of the desk - to show you (on their monitor) that they're not making any money on the sale. Not only are they not making money, they're losing... Poor, poor dealer
Yeah, don't ever believe THAT lie! :|

They make a HUGE profit on every sale. Some bikes are 100% profit margin. They sell you a bike for $8,000, their wholesale invoice price was $4,000 on that bike. The most closely guarded secret in the industry is what the "dealer" pays the "manufacturer" for bikes. It's a WHOLESALE price. Salesmen at the dealers never know the actual wholesale price of a bike. Even SALES MANAGERS do not get to see the dealers cost of a bike from the factory. The ONLY people that know the true wholesale price of a bike, is the dealership OWNER. The sales staff is only told what the target-price is for a particular bike. Sales managers know the bottom-line price their boss will let a bike go out the door for. This price changes over time, of course. But NOBODY knows the actual cost of the bike from the manufacturer, except the dealership OWNER. I have argued with people for YEARS, over this subject. It's because they like to THINK they are "in the loop", but they are NOT. Dealerships have extremely high overhead/operating costs. Most dealers do not sell enough volume to justify keeping the doors open and the lights on. SO... something must be going on. And it is. It's the MARGIN. And it's a BIG one! When a sales-goon tries to tell you their invoice price, and they are losing money on the sale, the sales-goon really doesn't know the TRUE price! He is just telling you what he is trained to tell you. Dealers fish for suckers daily. It's a shyster business. I hate it. I wish it wasn't this way. I would like to completely change the way motorcycle dealerships operate. No haggling, and no LYING to customers. Tell customers the TRUTH. And let the customer decide if he wants to buy or not. FAT CHANCE of THAT ever happening.
:(
 

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One more thing.... smaller cheaper bikes do have a smaller profit-margin. Dealers do not make as much money when they sell an R3 compared to an R1. More expensive bike, bigger margin. If I had to GUESS at the wholesale cost of an R3 from the factory... I would say $3,000. If they sell it to a customer for $5,000... they made $2,000 profit. Something like a new R1 might be $10,000-$12,000 wholesale. So when the customer buys it for $17,000 OTD.... you can see how big the profit-margin is. A bike like the FZ-07 might be around $4,000 wholesale. Nobody EVER publishes the wholesale prices. It's the most closely guarded secret in the industry. Dealers are sworn to secrecy as part of their deal to get the franchise. They are not legally allowed to disclose wholesale prices for bikes. They could lose their franchise if they do! Besides, it would be shooting yourself in the foot to advertise what YOU get the product for! Dealerships don't do it. Salespeople lie. It's what they are trained to do.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Have you considered the CBR650F? Beautiful bike. It's a bit more expensive than the Ninja 650R, but you do get an inline-four, and IMO a much better looking motorcycle. Definitely has that big bike feel, reminds me a little of my 2003 GSXR.
Previously I went for the FZ6R over the CBR650F, sort of like throwing darts, no real reason. Maybe I should give the Honda a closer look. It doesn't seem like a popular bike either, though. Nah, the top threads are still about lots of vibration. Maybe I should go straight for a liter bike like Ninja / Versys 1000, it's heavy but that's fine for cruising down the freeway.
 

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One more thing.... smaller cheaper bikes do have a smaller profit-margin. Dealers do not make as much money when they sell an R3 compared to an R1. More expensive bike, bigger margin. If I had to GUESS at the wholesale cost of an R3 from the factory... I would say $3,000. If they sell it to a customer for $5,000... they made $2,000 profit. Something like a new R1 might be $10,000-$12,000 wholesale. So when the customer buys it for $17,000 OTD.... you can see how big the profit-margin is. A bike like the FZ-07 might be around $4,000 wholesale. Nobody EVER publishes the wholesale prices. It's the most closely guarded secret in the industry. Dealers are sworn to secrecy as part of their deal to get the franchise. They are not legally allowed to disclose wholesale prices for bikes. They could lose their franchise if they do! Besides, it would be shooting yourself in the foot to advertise what YOU get the product for! Dealerships don't do it. Salespeople lie. It's what they are trained to do.
I'm just curious how you have all this top level, secret info and the rest of us schmoes think most bikes 8-10% mark up in them at sticker. There is always some factory hold back and there could be factory to dealer cash at times, but just like car and truck dealers they make their money on service and part sales. Those parts of the business have a much bigger margin than sales ever could.

Maybe I'm wrong, but can you prove how you're so right?

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Congrats on the new bike! I've been having tons of fun on mine and I've only been commuting in sketchy winter/spring weather so far.

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I'm just curious how you have all this top level, secret info and the rest of us schmoes think most bikes 8-10% mark up in them at sticker. There is always some factory hold back and there could be factory to dealer cash at times, but just like car and truck dealers they make their money on service and part sales. Those parts of the business have a much bigger margin than sales ever could.

Maybe I'm wrong, but can you prove how you're so right?
I have no facts to offer for CBRpilot's claims, but it's just business as normal. For instance, I work in the mainstream CPU industry. You can estimate a lot of numbers, but they guard "chip yield percentage" like crazy (super secret) because that's what would allow everyone to calculate whether we make meager or killer margins (customers and investors and employees and competitors).
 

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I'm just curious how you have all this top level, secret info and the rest of us schmoes think most bikes 8-10% mark up in them at sticker.

Maybe I'm wrong, but can you prove how you're so right?
Tell me what evidence you have that makes you think the profit-margin is 8-10%.

And you are wrong, but I can't prove anything unless I have access to factory invoices from a manufacturer. I would have to scan those invoices, and post them here so you can see for yourself what the wholesale prices are. Those invoices are locked-up and guarded by the people who own the dealership. They are figures in a computer database. The owners know the numbers, and they do not share those numbers with anyone. SO... either I was an owner at one time, or I knew an owner. OR... I knew someone who broke into a filing cabinet at a dealership, or happened to see things on a computer screen that they weren't supposed to have access to.
You can guess which one it is.
0:)
 

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Tell me what evidence you have that makes you think the profit-margin is 8-10%.

And you are wrong, but I can't prove anything unless I have access to factory invoices from a manufacturer. I would have to scan those invoices, and post them here so you can see for yourself what the wholesale prices are. Those invoices are locked-up and guarded by the people who own the dealership. They are figures in a computer database. The owners know the numbers, and they do not share those numbers with anyone. SO... either I was an owner at one time, or I knew an owner. OR... I knew someone who broke into a filing cabinet at a dealership, or happened to see things on a computer screen that they weren't supposed to have access to.
You can guess which one it is.
0:)
I've sold everything with wheels on it. Before you say it, I know I was only one of your derogatory termed goons. After some years of doing the job people start to confide in you. I suppose all the hard copies and computer info I saw was a charade, but why?

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
So I rode the R3 around quite a bit today, you get used to the power quickly. I was like, wait am I sure this is a lot quicker than the old Ninja 250? After a day of riding, I climbed on the Ninja ... first, the 250 is just slightly ever more comfy somehow with that long squishy banana seat, but second, it's so slow, dear goodness, so very slow. At no point does it ever give the illusion of possessing some sort of torque, lol. 6th gear is nearly useless except for maintaining speed. I think I have to rev it to 7K just to get moving from a stop sign, hahaha. Anyway so I just listed it for sale. I'll miss the 14K screaming monster that goes nowhere particularly fast, but it's gotta go.
 

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So I rode the R3 around quite a bit today, you get used to the power quickly. I was like, wait am I sure this is a lot quicker than the old Ninja 250? After a day of riding, I climbed on the Ninja ... first, the 250 is just slightly ever more comfy somehow with that long squishy banana seat, but second, it's so slow, dear goodness, so very slow. At no point does it ever give the illusion of possessing some sort of torque, lol. 6th gear is nearly useless except for maintaining speed. I think I have to rev it to 7K just to get moving from a stop sign, hahaha. Anyway so I just listed it for sale. I'll miss the 14K screaming monster that goes nowhere particularly fast, but it's gotta go.
:laugh:
 

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I suppose all the hard copies and computer info I saw was a charade, but why?
You are correct, and there are many reasons why.
If employees and customers knew the true numbers, they would argue for a better deal. The manufacturers know a dealership has huge operating expenses. The margins have to be large enough to cover these costs, plus make a profit for the OWNER. The real partnership here is between the manufacturing companies, and the franchise owners. That is where the money is. Dealership owners protect their investment. If customers knew the true numbers, they would argue for a better deal on the bike they want to buy. If salespeople knew the true numbers, they would argue with their boss that they should be getting a bigger commission on the sale. By presenting salespeople with an artificially higher number, the owner closes the margin gap. When salespeople tell customers a fake "dealer invoice cost" number, it fools the customer into thinking he is getting a better deal, instead of paying a larger profit-margin.
( Which he is actually paying! )

The whole system is one big "dog-and-pony show". The owner tells the sales manager one lie. The sales manager tells his sales staff another lie. The salespeople tell the customer another lie. The manufacturer publishes the MSRP price, to give customers an idea of a "starting point" for the final price they will pay for the motorcycle. ( Plus tax, title, license, and dealer fees.... of course. )

"Dealer fees" are usually: destination charge, setup, and documentation. ( ALL extra profit for the dealer. )
On top of the profit-margin for the motorcycle itself. They "double-dip". The "dealer fees" are what they use to pay the employees with. The profit-margin of the bike goes straight to the owner of the dealership.

Now, armed with this knowledge, can you go into a dealership and get yourself a better deal on a brand new motorcycle?
NO. The sales staff has been given a "bottom line" on all the bikes. They won't go below the price the owner tells the sales manager to get for each bike. The only way to get a price-break on a new bike is one of a few ways:
1. Manufacturer rebates ( Bonus bucks )
2. Last-year leftovers
3. You happen to want a bike nobody else wants ( They discount bikes that don't move )
 
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