[bbsteinnewyork]

Ok just finished the mapping on the air box mods. Keep in mind that this is a stock engine with 2800 miles on it. The mapping was done with 91 octane pump gas. I did degree the cams and install the Graves cam chain tensioner. Below is the list of mods that effect the power output

Graves Full system
Graves Air box mods with Graves prototype VStacks
Graves smog block off
Graves cam sprockets
Graves cam chain tensioner
Suter clutch
Graves mapped Ftecu flash
Yamalube 0/20 racing oil

This R3 is fast!! 46 HP

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[JimGnitecki]

Excellent, BB! THIS is how a properly generated dyno chart looks.

I've taken the liberty of taking a screenshot of the image, as its native format would not allow anyone to save it for offline viewing. I've also used some photo enhancement controls to sharpen it where I could for easier reading.

Note:

- Dynojet dyno used for easy and meaningful comparability to other charts

- GRAVES Dynojet dyno used, not some indy shop with unknown controls and dyno maintenance and calibration program, and no valuable national integrity reputation to protect

- SAE correction factor used instead of the more aggressive but less correct STD correction

- Smoothing level = 5, which irons out any "blip" peaks that are not real reproducible horsepower


In BB's list of mods, these are the actual meaningful power makers:

Graves Full system (That very large and specific length muffler lets the engine breathe, and that very large muffler volume gives you the power with a noise level that threatens your hearing and gets you tickets. This is a key component in getting this power curve)

Graves Air box mods with Graves prototype VStacks (THIS is something that we have not seen before. Need the details on it. It APPEARS that this has had a remarkably big effect, given that this is the only mod that BB made RECENTLY, and it is the one that apparently drove the peak power from around 41 to 46 rwhp. That's HUGE for an airbox mod, and suggests that either the OEM setup is not very good, or that Graves has made a breakthrough.)

Graves smog block off (Removes the negative effects of the air injection system which would otherwise continue to function even if turned "off" in the ECU, until this plate is installed to "physically block the path")

Graves cam sprockets (MAYBE. Depends if used to alter cam timing, or if merely used for better high rpm stability. If they are used to alter the cam timing (Usually by advancing the cams a bit), that is a big deal, and a clever way to avoid having to produce and buy whole new cams. Changing the timing this way requires careful measurement and allowance for valve-to-piston clearance. If this was done here, the dyno chart shows it was done WELL, as there are NO negative effects at low rpm. That's pretty remarkable)

Graves cam chain tensioner (MAYBE. The fact that Graves uses these suggests that the stock tensioner may allow some unintended random timing variation at high rpm, and this Graves tensioner reduces that)

Graves mapped Ftecu flash (THIS is what brings it all together. Without this, you don't harvest most of the benefits)

Yamalube 0/20 racing oil (MAYBE a tiny contribution but I doubt it. If there is a contribution, it is tiny)

The Suter clutch has no impact on either crank horsepower or rear wheel horsepower. It's just a better clutch than the typical OEM clutch.

Based on this dyno chart, it looks to me like TST should stop their silly and low credibility engine power program and just buy a Graves setup.

Nice work, BB. Let me know how I can get the airbox mods and the new tune that supports it.

Jim G

 

[KimmyR3]

pics of the airbox maybe?

 

[JimGnitecki]

The marked up chart below sheds some more light on the situation.

I've add the blue line to the chart. The blue line shows what Graves was getting before the airbox mod. The bottom line continues to display the stock power curve. The top line continues to display the power curve with the modded airbox. I apologize for the clunky nature of the blue line, but I was in a hurry and so just transferred the datapoints manually using a ruler as a scale on the chart.

Now all the following is based on my understanding of what BB has said above to be that he had all the mods EXCEPT the airbox mod already on his Graves R3, and now added ONLY the airbox mod.

Is that the case, BB? For example, when you "degreed' the cams, did you simply ensure that they were at the OEM spec settings, or did you advance them or retard them at all?

If so, look carefully at this chart. Notice that the airbox mod is only a BIT higher in power than the prior setup (everything except the airbox mod) UNTIL you get above 9000 to 10,000 rpm. After 10,000, it leaves the prior curve for dead.

Notice also that the prior power peak was at 11,000 rpm, but with the airbox mod peak power is at 12,200 (still within the OEM mechanical rev limit, by the way).

There is no way that the airbox mod alone made THAT much difference, UNLESS the prior tune already had superior breathing ability where the limiting "cork" in the system was the airbox. That is, any efforts to improve power via exhaust or valve timing or anything else was pretty much doomed simply because the exhaust, the heads, the cams, and the valves could ALREADY flow more than the airbox could feed. But evidently, whatever airbox breakthrough Graves has made was sufficient to "pull the cork", and now the rest of the engine and its exhaust can really show what they can do.

This is a rather important discovery, as you could waste a lot of time and a ton of money doing things other than the airbox and not realize that the cork is evidently there.

And that does NOT mean that you should remove or drill holes in your airbox! It is nowhere near that simple. BB, what did Graves DO? I think you previously mentioned velocity stacks in one of your posts. THAT may be a key change.

This could actually be a pretty important "breakthrough", similar to what one of the tuning houses did last year on the Mercedes C63 500+ hp hotrod, when they figured out how to manipulate the variable cam timing system beyond what Mercedes did in the OEM tune.

But BB, we need the BEEF. Please describe precisely what parts and work the mod requires to be done.

Jim G

 

[BluebirdR3]

Well, we're all waiting patiently for the details on this air box mod that is supposedly something amazing. Let's hope we get details soon! In the other thread, BB never responded.

 

[JimGnitecki]

If this is going to be generally "available", my guess is that Graves might package it as a "kit" that includes the physical modded and additional parts, as well as the required tune. If I am correct in my theory that the airbox might have been an unrealized cork for a long time, then ONE tune won't do the job. Graves would need to market at least the following tune variants:

- Tune for an otherwise stock R3
- Tune for an R3 with a Graves Cat elim exhaust
- Tune for an R3 with a full Graves exhaust

All 3 of these variants would each produce a different power curve, with progressively higher power curves.

In addition, Graves could market the airbox mod as a standalone physical product, and any rider who has chosen to buy a non-Graves exhaust would need to either get a custom dyno tune or request one from the maker of his or her exhaust system. Naturally, this would increase Graves exhaust sales dramatically, and perhaps also the Graves camchain tensioner product, and rightfully so. After all, they did the development work and paid the costs for doing so, so why should they give any part of the overall package away for free?

I know I would buy the airbox physical kit and the tune that would match it to my Graves Cat Elim exhaust. Where else are you going to get 6 more rwhp (15% MORE on top of what Graves offered via the exhaust plus tune, which was already 14% better than OEM), without tearing the engine apart, and even if you did the engine work, you might just struggle like TST has done.

Jim G

 

[buradd]

I just want to know when, if ever, we can get our hands on a production airbox mod or otherwise the schematics and media to support building our own modification.

also side note, my M4 titanium exhaust looks strikingly similar to the graves exhaust.. would it be safe to say an AF tune on a graves full system would be nearly the same as an AF tune on the M4 full system barring all other components matched?

 

[JimGnitecki]

I just want to know when, if ever, we can get our hands on a production airbox mod or otherwise the schematics and media to support building our own modification.

also side note, my M4 titanium exhaust looks strikingly similar to the graves exhaust.. would it be safe to say an AF tune on a graves full system would be nearly the same as an AF tune on the M4 full system barring all other components matched?

EXTERNALLY the 2 exhaust mufflers might be the same. But internally, they might be very different. In addition, the total length of piping before the muffler makes a difference, as does any difference in header diameter. On a 13,000 rpm engine, I don't think I would take the chance.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

BB, I don't see this R3 airbox mod product anywhere on the Graves website, at least yet.

1. HOW did you get it?

2. The dynochart you posted was made on the Graves dyno, But Graves is in California, and it appears that you are in NYC. So, is that dyno chart somehow specifically for your own R3, or is it a dynochart that you somehow got from Graves?

3. Exactly what kind of relaitonshiop do you have with Graves that gives you this kind of access to new Graves stuff?

Jim G

 

[bbsteinnewyork]

Ok which question t o answer first.?

Graves does not want me to post pictures at this time. They will release the production kit soon.

Since my last dyno runs (@ Jim) I did install the Graves cam chain tensioner and tbe Graves cam sprockets (degree the cams to a Graves spec) so the power increase includes these mods. The advantages from these mods where noticed but not dynoed by themselves.

The tensioner is designed to reduce friction and hold accurate timing at high Rpm

The cam timing sprockets are slotted and the timing is optimized



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[bbsteinnewyork]

BB, I don't see this R3 airbox mod product anywhere on the Graves website, at least yet.

1. HOW did you get it?

2. The dynochart you posted was made on the Graves dyno, But Graves is in California, and it appears that you are in NYC. So, is that dyno chart somehow specifically for your own R3, or is it a dynochart that you somehow got from Graves?

3. Exactly what kind of relaitonshiop do you have with Graves that gives you this kind of access to new Graves stuff?

Jim G

As I've posted before,, Graves has a sister company Graves Racing Services that has lots of factory/works parts.

They sell current and old special parts. The only way to have knowledge of what they have and when they have it is to build a relationship with that group.

Graves Motorsports has all the items that are intended to be sold to the public in general.
@jim
I've had a business to business relationship with Graves for many years which includes an NDA. Plus I've spent many $ with Graves over the years.

I live in So Cal. The dyno graphs are from my bike.




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[JimGnitecki]

Ok which question t o answer first.?

Graves does not want me to post pictures at this time. They will release the production kit soon.

Since my last dyno runs (@ Jim) I did install the Graves cam chain tensioner and tbe Graves cam sprockets (degree the cams to a Graves spec) so the power increase includes these mods. The advantages from these mods where noticed but not dynoed by themselves.

The tensioner is designed to reduce friction and hold accurate timing at high Rpm

The cam timing sprockets are slotted and the timing is optimized



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Ok, so it looks like it is the COMBINATION of airbox mods and valve timing changes (via the slotted cam sprockets) that makes the extra power.

The exact number of degrees of change in the cam timing is important to know, as being off could cause the valves to hit the pistons. To explain a little more, because the engine is a DOHC design, it is possible to use the combination of the slotted sprockets to individually advance or retard the exhaust and intake cams, within the constraints of not hitting the pistons, so that the engine can ingest and burn more air and fuel. But this is not something you do by trial and error and without a dyno. It takes the kind of resources that Graves has available to do this correctly and safely.

And, it is great that Graves is planning to release a production kit (or kits, for the various different Graves exhaust systems?) soon. If we can really reliably get from 40 to 46 rwhp via these changes, apparently withOUT hurting the low rpm power, that is a quantum leap in engine performance of a magnitude I would not have expected.

This shows us what experienced and skilled people with good equipment and technique can do, that the rest of us can then buy at relatively bargain prices.

Jim G

 

[JimGnitecki]

As I've posted before,, Graves has a sister company Graves Racing Services that has lots of factory/works parts.

They sell current and old special parts. The only way to have knowledge of what they have and when they have it is to build a relationship with that group.

Graves Motorsports has all the items that are intended to be sold to the public in general.
@jim
I've had a business to business relationship with Graves for many years which includes an NDA. Plus I've spent many $ with Graves over the years.

I live in So Cal. The dyno graphs are from my bike.




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Thanks for the detailed explanation, BB. I don't remember how I got the idea you were in NYC, so I apologize for that misunderstanding and the confusion it created.

Your explanation should reassure everyone watching this thread that this is worth staying current on as it unfolds.

If Graves handles this well, it could change the R3 landscape a LOT.

Jim G

 

[bbsteinnewyork]

I think the cam chain tensioner is good for 1 HP. It reduces a fair amount of friction when set correctly.

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[buradd]

I don't remember how I got the idea you were in NYC

it's in his name... it was a subliminal message

 

[JimGnitecki]

it's in his name... it was a subliminal message

Yes, that's right! I'm sure there's an explanation for BB doing that . . .

Jim G

 

[Gravesport]

As I've posted before,, Graves has a sister company Graves Racing Services that has lots of factory/works parts.

They sell current and old special parts. The only way to have knowledge of what they have and when they have it is to build a relationship with that group.

Graves Motorsports has all the items that are intended to be sold to the public in general.
@jim
I've had a business to business relationship with Graves for many years which includes an NDA. Plus I've spent many $ with Graves over the years.

I live in So Cal. The dyno graphs are from my bike.




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Thanks Ben great to see you as always.

All :

www.gravesport.com is our parts and accessories branch of the company Coupon code: "r3forum" is always available for parts sales. The airbox kits are in manufacturing. We'll post soon as they are released.

www.gravesracingservices.com is our team direct parts. Specialty bike purchases form our team, parts like Suter, YEC kit parts and much more can be obtained through this outlet.

 

[buradd]

Thanks Ben great to see you as always.

All :

www.gravesport.com is our parts and accessories branch of the company Coupon code: "r3forum" is always available for parts sales. The airbox kits are in manufacturing. We'll post soon as they are released.

www.gravesracingservices.com is our team direct parts. Specialty bike purchases form our team, parts like Suter, YEC kit parts and much more can be obtained through this outlet.

I want 46hp. Make it happen, cap'n.

 

[bbsteinnewyork]

it's in his name... it was a subliminal message

142nd and Amsterdam ? Kidding

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[buradd]

142nd and Amsterdam ? Kidding

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found you