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So I have a 2017 R3, im planning to buy M4 slip on exhaust, the thing is I heard you have to do something to the bike. I heard you have to Ecu flash it or power command it or get a fuel controller and tune, I dont know if they're all the same but can someone explain to me what those things are and I want to know whats the thing i have to do it. Thank you all in advance.

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So I have a 2017 R3, im planning to buy M4 slip on exhaust, the thing is I heard you have to do something to the bike. I heard you have to Ecu flash it or power command it or get a fuel controller and tune, I dont know if they're all the same but can someone explain to me what those things are and I want to know whats the thing i have to do it. Thank you all in advance.

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The M4 Street Slayer shsould not really be called a "slip-on" exhaust, because it does NOT just "slip-on". You actually have to cut the giant and heavy "blob" under your transmission out of your exhaust system in order to fit the M4 Street Slayer onto the bike.

That blob contains both a catalytic converter and some exhaust muffling, so rmeoving it changes the exhaust restriction a LOT, increases the airflow, and necessitates more fuel to match the increased airflow.

THAT's why you need either an ECU reflash or a Power Commander or a Bazzazz fuel controller.

All 3 of these choices are quite expensive. The ECU reflash will likely cost at least $250, and the Power Commander and Bazzazz are both more than that.

A posting threrad is not an appropriate place to try to explain to you how the ECU reflash and Power Commander or Bazzazz differ in their approaches. Educate yourself via Google searches before you spend the money on the exhaust.

Google:

"ECU reflash"
"Power Commander"
"Bazzazz"

And by the way, in removing the blob, you are removing an emission controls device, which is illegal to do in california and many other jurisdictions. If your jurisdiction has an inspection program, or has its police inspect bikes that are stopped for any other reason, you will be in a world of hurt when you are given "x" days to restore the exhaust system to a legal state, because the M4 Street Slayer requires you to CUT that blob out of your system, NOT unbolt it (no provisions on it to unbolt), so you will have to buy another blob/header assembly (it's all one piece).

Also, the gain you get in power is ridiculously small. See:

https://www.sportbiketrackgear.com/product_images/product_pdf/2015-R3-Slip-On-System-DYNO.pdf

Research this carefully before buying . . .

Jim G
 

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Discussion Starter #3
The M4 Street Slayer shsould not really be called a "slip-on" exhaust, because it does NOT just "slip-on". You actually have to cut the giant and heavy "blob" under your transmission out of your exhaust system in order to fit the M4 Street Slayer onto the bike.

That blob contains both a catalytic converter and some exhaust muffling, so rmeoving it changes the exhaust restriction a LOT, increases the airflow, and necessitates more fuel to match the increased airflow.

THAT's why you need either an ECU reflash or a Power Commander or a Bazzazz fuel controller.

All 3 of these choices are quite expensive. The ECU reflash will likely cost at least $250, and the Power Commander and Bazzazz are both more than that.

A posting threrad is not an appropriate place to try to explain to you how the ECU reflash and Power Commander or Bazzazz differ in their approaches. Educate yourself via Google searches before you spend the money on the exhaust.

Google:

"ECU reflash"
"Power Commander"
"Bazzazz"

And by the way, in removing the blob, you are removing an emission controls device, which is illegal to do in california and many other jurisdictions. If your jurisdiction has an inspection program, or has its police inspect bikes that are stopped for any other reason, you will be in a world of hurt when you are given "x" days to restore the exhaust system to a legal state, because the M4 Street Slayer requires you to CUT that blob out of your system, NOT unbolt it (no provisions on it to unbolt), so you will have to buy another blob/header assembly (it's all one piece).

Also, the gain you get in power is ridiculously small. See:

https://www.sportbiketrackgear.com/product_images/product_pdf/2015-R3-Slip-On-System-DYNO.pdf

Research this carefully before buying . . .

Jim G
Thank you very much for taking your time kind sir, I appreciate very much, thanks for the help!

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I’d recommend just getting a full race exhaust.

Check out this link from Yamaha R3 racing, it’ll tell you everything you need to know:
Yamaha R3 dyno results, how much power does it make? What is the best exhaust? Power Commander vs. Bazzaz? - YamahaR3Racing.com
http://www.yamahar3racing.com/2016/08/yamaha-r3-dyno-results-with-akrapovic-full-system-slip-on-and-stock-exhaust-tuned-with-bazzaz-zfi/
I would not use this link as a reputable source for information when considering an exhaust purchase. Without shaming Jesse I have read the blog he has posted and commented on his findings. When I pointed out the his less than scientific approach I was blasted and my comments where removed.
If I was you I would do some research with industry leading race shops before you purchase. Try EDR performance, Attack Racing, Tuned Racing or any of the other fine companies that actually have a dyno and years of experience using a dyno and have experience with the R3 specifically.
I think you will hear a far different story.

Just the Facts

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I would not use this link as a reputable source for information when considering an exhaust purchase. Without shaming Jesse I have read the blog he has posted and commented on his findings. When I pointed out the his less than scientific approach I was blasted and my comments where removed.
If I was you I would do some research with industry leading race shops before you purchase. Try EDR performance, Attack Racing, Tuned Racing or any of the other fine companies that actually have a dyno and years of experience using a dyno and have experience with the R3 specifically.
I think you will hear a far different story.

Just the Facts

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Unreputable?? Less than scientific approach?? haha this post is laughable... No wonder you get blasted. I bet ya if he had tested a Graves unit you'd be fine with it though >:D

@jbluetooth has invested 100's of hours in R&D/dyno time on the R3 since the day he got one.... I take personal exception to anyone knocking on his HIGHLY INFORMATIVE blog posts as he has contributed far more to this community than just about anyone else. If you cant get an answer out of Jesse on your questions its likely because you weren't polite enough and Im sure he has far better things to do with his time then sit and banter back and forth with someone critiquing his work. Pretty simple, if you don't like the information hes posted... JUST IGNORE IT... the rest of us are quite happy with his information and I will continue to refer people to the information on his blog.

Everyone who has ever dealt with Dynos knows that there are far to many uncontrollable variables to ever take a true 'scientific approach' to compare against... not to mention were talking about an engine not even capable of producing 55hp... most dynos are in the max 600-1000hp range... they're not exactly super accurate to begin with at these low of numbers... especially so on Mustang Dynos for vehicles

Its like all the people ragging on the Aussie girl who added ram air tubes to her bike.... there is no measurable way to see if it created a performance gain as there is no way to statically charge the air going into the 'Ram Air' while on a dyno, but in theory it should work but people blasted her anyway.

And to the OP... if you're looking for power gains don't even bother with any kind of slip-on (M4 street slayer falls in the hybrid slipon/full system category) its going to be mostly a cosmetic upgrade, in my opinion you're far better off investing some more in a true full system, its only $200 between the Street Slayer and the M4 full system... even less if you dont want a carbon/titanium muffler. Either way with the M4 options you will need a way to tune the Air/Fuel mixture.
 

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Unreputable?? Less than scientific approach?? haha this post is laughable... No wonder you get blasted. I bet ya if he had tested a Graves unit you'd be fine with it though >:D

@jbluetooth has invested 100's of hours in R&D/dyno time on the R3 since the day he got one.... I take personal exception to anyone knocking on his HIGHLY INFORMATIVE blog posts as he has contributed far more to this community than just about anyone else. If you cant get an answer out of Jesse on your questions its likely because you weren't polite enough and Im sure he has far better things to do with his time then sit and banter back and forth with someone critiquing his work. Pretty simple, if you don't like the information hes posted... JUST IGNORE IT... the rest of us are quite happy with his information and I will continue to refer people to the information on his blog.

Everyone who has ever dealt with Dynos knows that there are far to many uncontrollable variables to ever take a true 'scientific approach' to compare against... not to mention were talking about an engine not even capable of producing 55hp... most dynos are in the max 600-1000hp range... they're not exactly super accurate to begin with at these low of numbers... especially so on Mustang Dynos for vehicles

Its like all the people ragging on the Aussie girl who added ram air tubes to her bike.... there is no measurable way to see if it created a performance gain as there is no way to statically charge the air going into the 'Ram Air' while on a dyno, but in theory it should work but people blasted her anyway.

And to the OP... if you're looking for power gains don't even bother with any kind of slip-on (M4 street slayer falls in the hybrid slipon/full system category) its going to be mostly a cosmetic upgrade, in my opinion you're far better off investing some more in a true full system, its only $200 between the Street Slayer and the M4 full system... even less if you dont want a carbon/titanium muffler. Either way with the M4 options you will need a way to tune the Air/Fuel mixture.
Maverick
I don't think that Jesse meant to mislead anyone with his blog. What I pointed out was the way he compared dyno runs from different motorcycles with different set ups while attempting to compare the performance of exhaust exhaust systems.

I believe that Jesse did the best job that he could with the tools and experience that he had.

What is clear to anyone with dyno tuning expereance is that you can't compare a part on an engine without a direct back to back comparison. This must be done in a short period of time while the atmosferic conditions stay the same. It's not possible to evaluate 2 bikes from 2 different dynos with different gearing sets on a different day.

Jesse's posts are made up of runs from a multitude of different bikes with different set ups on different dynos. Jesse even mentions this in his blog. I simply reviewed the blog and commented on the facts. I never meant to be rude, just informative.

Just the Facts!



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Unreputable?? Less than scientific approach?? haha this post is laughable... No wonder you get blasted. I bet ya if he had tested a Graves unit you'd be fine with it though >:D

@jbluetooth has invested 100's of hours in R&D/dyno time on the R3 since the day he got one.... I take personal exception to anyone knocking on his HIGHLY INFORMATIVE blog posts as he has contributed far more to this community than just about anyone else. If you cant get an answer out of Jesse on your questions its likely because you weren't polite enough and Im sure he has far better things to do with his time then sit and banter back and forth with someone critiquing his work. Pretty simple, if you don't like the information hes posted... JUST IGNORE IT... the rest of us are quite happy with his information and I will continue to refer people to the information on his blog.

Everyone who has ever dealt with Dynos knows that there are far to many uncontrollable variables to ever take a true 'scientific approach' to compare against... not to mention were talking about an engine not even capable of producing 55hp... most dynos are in the max 600-1000hp range... they're not exactly super accurate to begin with at these low of numbers... especially so on Mustang Dynos for vehicles

Its like all the people ragging on the Aussie girl who added ram air tubes to her bike.... there is no measurable way to see if it created a performance gain as there is no way to statically charge the air going into the 'Ram Air' while on a dyno, but in theory it should work but people blasted her anyway.

And to the OP... if you're looking for power gains don't even bother with any kind of slip-on (M4 street slayer falls in the hybrid slipon/full system category) its going to be mostly a cosmetic upgrade, in my opinion you're far better off investing some more in a true full system, its only $200 between the Street Slayer and the M4 full system... even less if you dont want a carbon/titanium muffler. Either way with the M4 options you will need a way to tune the Air/Fuel mixture.
Except the part where theoretically it wouldn't work unless you got to unacheivable speeds/problematic temperatures as demonstrated by 2 engineers. Pesky thermodynamics/fluid dynamics really get in the way of the massive horsepower gains as claimed by the ass dyno. Fans are routinely used for dyno runs to simulate air flow at speed, like for cooling. But I realize I am only taking my position because she is Aussie or female. Not at all based on the fact that I have a basic understanding of the theory claimed. And either nobody else understands the theory better than I do that read that post, or nobody has disagreed with my calculations or method because they are correct.

Putting his Graves fanboyism aside he does put forward some fair points. You do have to take Jesse's link with a grain of salt, he even says so himself. That being said, the major takeaway I get from that post is that the smaller diameter headers of the Akrapovic are detrimental. All the other systems are pretty much the same. Thus larger than stock header pipes are beneficial. Further that information is outdated and does not take into account the new exhaust systems that have been released n'or the use of FTECU tunes over just the Bazzaz/PCV. So I wouldn't necessarily specifically buy an M4 System based on the linked information, but I would say you want the larger header pipes.

@ the OP I do agree that you might as well just go for a full system and I sorely regret getting a slip-on. Since Jesse's findings are that the bike benefits from larger than stock header pipes. Or of course just stay stock, I did a slip-on since I wanted to keep the Cat for my street bike. Not that I was going for power gains. Another thing to consider is the removal of the heat shield on the stock can. I have melted my boot's heel pretty badly on my slip-on.

@bbstein If you never meant to be rude, you could avoid using turns of phrases like "Just the facts!" when you have no real facts in your post. Your posts also always drip with Graves fanboyism, which is only off putting when it isn't in threads that talk about other products. When they are you, constantly plug Graves products and call everything else trash. That is kinda the very definition of rude.
 

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Maverick

I believe that Jesse did the best job that he could with the tools and experience that he had.
Sorry if I came across as harsh but Im trying to get the point through that there is no such thing as 'accurate/scientific comparisons' on any dyno.

Ive seen dyno tests where the exact same car was rolled off the dyno then rolled back on it 20mins later with ZERO changes and you will get results with a measurable variance... just like if you added a cold air intake and did a dyno run and went 'look I gained 2HP'... no just the dyno is reading 2 more HP it doesnt mean absolutely your engine is making 2 more HP.

So needless to say... the information Jesse has provided is about as accurate as your going to get.

If you know of anyone thats going to spend a day and $100s of dollars in parts/labour swapping exhausts and doing back to back dyno runs without changing the bikes position on the dyno, Id like to hear about it but nobody in there right mind is going to do that. Manufacturers often take comparison numbers from other manufacturers.. Graves could be saying look we make 2more HP then Akrapovic... doesnt mean Graves actually tested an Akra system back to back against their product on the same dyno

Just something to chew on :)


Except the part where theoretically it wouldn't work unless you got to unacheivable speeds/problematic temperatures as demonstrated by 2 engineers. Pesky thermodynamics/fluid dynamics really get in the way of the massive horsepower gains as claimed by the ass dyno. Fans are routinely used for dyno runs to simulate air flow at speed, like for cooling. But I realize I am only taking my position because she is Aussie or female. Not at all based on the fact that I have a basic understanding of the theory claimed. And either nobody else understands the theory better than I do that read that post, or nobody has disagreed with my calculations or method because they are correct.
I agree there is pages and pages of math involved when engineers calculate their designs. While the 'Massive Butt Dyno Gains' are very likely the placebo effect.

Ram Air is supposed to be a sealed system so in technicality yes her setup is flawed, but in theory if she hadnt hacked a giant hole in the side of the box and had an air supply that was equal to/in excess of what the factory snorkel already flows... it should be generating a denser (cooler) air flow and if properly set up you can generate boost at speed... albeit a mere .05 psi @ 60mph in a perfect world..

This is just my understanding of the situation though... Im the furthest thing from an engineer haha. I did a true ram air intake years ago on my Camaro and made the decision then... Unless you've got lots of free time and $$ to get it right, just leave it stock haha...
 

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Except the part where theoretically it wouldn't work unless you got to unacheivable speeds/problematic temperatures as demonstrated by 2 engineers. Pesky thermodynamics/fluid dynamics really get in the way of the massive horsepower gains as claimed by the ass dyno. Fans are routinely used for dyno runs to simulate air flow at speed, like for cooling. But I realize I am only taking my position because she is Aussie or female. Not at all based on the fact that I have a basic understanding of the theory claimed. And either nobody else understands the theory better than I do that read that post, or nobody has disagreed with my calculations or method because they are correct.

Putting his Graves fanboyism aside he does put forward some fair points. You do have to take Jesse's link with a grain of salt, he even says so himself. That being said, the major takeaway I get from that post is that the smaller diameter headers of the Akrapovic are detrimental. All the other systems are pretty much the same. Thus larger than stock header pipes are beneficial. Further that information is outdated and does not take into account the new exhaust systems that have been released n'or the use of FTECU tunes over just the Bazzaz/PCV. So I wouldn't necessarily specifically buy an M4 System based on the linked information, but I would say you want the larger header pipes.

@ the OP I do agree that you might as well just go for a full system and I sorely regret getting a slip-on. Since Jesse's findings are that the bike benefits from larger than stock header pipes. Or of course just stay stock, I did a slip-on since I wanted to keep the Cat for my street bike. Not that I was going for power gains. Another thing to consider is the removal of the heat shield on the stock can. I have melted my boot's heel pretty badly on my slip-on.

@bbstein If you never meant to be rude, you could avoid using turns of phrases like "Just the facts!" when you have no real facts in your post. Your posts also always drip with Graves fanboyism, which is only off putting when it isn't in threads that talk about other products. When they are you, constantly plug Graves products and call everything else trash. That is kinda the very definition of rude.
I don't recall calling someone's product "trash" but if I did bad me.

As for being a fan of Graves, its true that I do like the products they make and the support they provide when you use the same set ups they develop.

How many pipe company's provide the type of complementary products and information to enhance their exhaust systems that Graves does? None that I am aware of.

I purchased another brand pipe for my zx10 and requested a map for it. Funny thing,, they told me to flash it with a Graves map.
I asked them how could they have done development work on their pipe without solving these issues. I can only suppose that they didn't.

Dyno development
The dyno is only as good as the operator. If you witnessed the same vehicle on the same dyno in the same conditions make different numbers then the operator doesn't understand enough about all of the conditions that can cause this or they did not take the nescesary steps to ensure consistsncy or the dyno was broken.








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Dyno development
The dyno is only as good as the operator. If you witnessed the same vehicle on the same dyno in the same conditions make different numbers then the operator doesn't understand enough about all of the conditions that can cause this or they did not take the nescesary steps to ensure consistsncy or the dyno was broken.
Dude.... if somebody owns a dyno they do it for a living and take the time to do it right... otherwise they're wasting their time and that equals costing them money.

Most good shops measuring peak power will do multiple runs and average the top results or just use the peak pull.... why... because you never get the exact same results.... even on the same dyno... at the same time... running back to back pulls... this gets marginally amplified repositioning the vehicle/bike on the dyno.... suspension loads... tire positioning on the roller.. etc etc etc... even a change in tire pressure will have an affect, you wanna get nit picky even the viscosity of the gear/engine/transmission oils at a given temperature. All these variables add up. Not to mention the environmental variables constantly changing. When I used to pit for a drag car.. we could have altitude equivalent air density of 3200ft at 8am... by 9:30am it was over 4200ft.. thats a 1000ft drop in air pressure in an hour and half

Now you wanna go and start swapping complete exhausts and doing back to back runs to be as 'scientifically accurate' thats all fine and dandy... but in the land of reality no one will ever do that... Costs for one, and for what gain, so a manufacturer can 'definitively say' their product makes 1hp more on a 35hp motor than the competition???
ya... I dont think so....
Not to mention the risks of damaging your exhausts ports fiddle fartin around swapping exhausts on a warm/hot cylinder head.

Why do you think manufacturers rate HP at the flywheel?? Because dyno results are too variable (not just because its a higher number)

Apologies to the OP for hijacking his thread from 'M4StreetSlayer' to 'bbsteinnewyork and Maverick's dyno debate' ;)

So now that you understand why @jbluetooth provided the information they way he did feel free to throw down an apology for critiquing the way he did it and for suggesting we shouldnt recommend his blog because of it
 

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Dude.... if somebody owns a dyno they do it for a living and take the time to do it right... otherwise they're wasting their time and that equals costing them money.

Most good shops measuring peak power will do multiple runs and average the top results or just use the peak pull.... why... because you never get the exact same results.... even on the same dyno... at the same time... running back to back pulls... this gets marginally amplified repositioning the vehicle/bike on the dyno.... suspension loads... tire positioning on the roller.. etc etc etc... even a change in tire pressure will have an affect, you wanna get nit picky even the viscosity of the gear/engine/transmission oils at a given temperature. All these variables add up. Not to mention the environmental variables constantly changing. When I used to pit for a drag car.. we could have altitude equivalent air density of 3200ft at 8am... by 9:30am it was over 4200ft.. thats a 1000ft drop in air pressure in an hour and half

Now you wanna go and start swapping complete exhausts and doing back to back runs to be as 'scientifically accurate' thats all fine and dandy... but in the land of reality no one will ever do that... Costs for one, and for what gain, so a manufacturer can 'definitively say' their product makes 1hp more on a 35hp motor than the competition???
ya... I dont think so....
Not to mention the risks of damaging your exhausts ports fiddle fartin around swapping exhausts on a warm/hot cylinder head.

Why do you think manufacturers rate HP at the flywheel?? Because dyno results are too variable (not just because its a higher number)

Apologies to the OP for hijacking his thread from 'M4StreetSlayer' to 'bbsteinnewyork and Maverick's dyno debate' ;)

So now that you understand why @jbluetooth provided the information they way he did feel free to throw down an apology for critiquing the way he did it and for suggesting we shouldnt recommend his blog because of it
So your theory is that anyone with a dyno is an expert in controlling the multitude of conditions that can be different? I personally believe that there are very few top level operators. There are even less that will spend the time to do the job correctly. This is mostly due to the cost of time and the dollars it will generate for the average dyno shop. So your point of economics is correct.

In the case of a proper development shop the approach is very different. This is most likely something you and Jesse have not experienced so I understand your resistance to believe that back to back consistent results are achievable.

I do not believe that an apology is warranted for my comments regarding Jesse's blog. This is exactly what forums are intended for. The exchange of ideas and thoughts, not one way communications demanding that the author is somehow correct because he or she wrote it.

I have been civil in all of my post and will continue to call attention to inaccuracies and share my thoughts.




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I do not believe that an apology is warranted for my comments regarding Jesse's blog. This is exactly what forums are intended for.
Too bad what you're asking for is completely unrealistic >:D

The day you hear of a shop testing a multitude of full systems back to back meeting your standards of 'scientifically controlled' you be sure to come back here and link to it for us okay :D
 

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I clearly state in my posts which ones are direct apples to apples on the same bike and dyno, and even same day, and which ones are not. I'm not trying to mislead anyone, everyone who has read my posts knows that.
 

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I can't seem to find the post now....but I thought the Street Slayer was a 6 hp gain and 9lbs loss? That's a pretty good net gain for a bike that has 35ish hp......But PLEASE correct me if I am wrong...cause I'm actually looking into this exhaust myself. I remember the graves full system getting 9hp....but again, can't find the post....
 

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I can't seem to find the post now....but I thought the Street Slayer was a 6 hp gain and 9lbs loss? That's a pretty good net gain for a bike that has 35ish hp......But PLEASE correct me if I am wrong...cause I'm actually looking into this exhaust myself. I remember the graves full system getting 9hp....but again, can't find the post....
I did a pretty thorough search before buying a system.The most effective system in terms of CLAIMED power is the Graves system which supposedly increased power by 5 rwhp or over 14%. It's also NOT obnoxiously loud. I think ALL of these systems need an ECU tune to actually GET that power, as the stock ECU tune maps apaprently cannot handle and feed 14% more fuel.

Jim G
 

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I did a pretty thorough search before buying a system.The most effective system in terms of CLAIMED power is the Graves system which supposedly increased power by 5 rwhp or over 14%. It's also NOT obnoxiously loud. I think ALL of these systems need an ECU tune to actually GET that power, as the stock ECU tune maps apaprently cannot handle and feed 14% more fuel.

Jim G
Thanks Jim....totally forgot the actual numbers...I know the graves cat elim gives the best hp, but I do recall the M4 being only 1 or 2 hp down, with a 1 lbs weight savings over the graves....I'm going to do a flash to smooth out the fuel map
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Guys I just want to make my bike louder honestly so cars can hear me thanks for all this information though!

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