Yamaha R3 Forums banner

1 - 20 of 55 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello fellow R3ader's.

Since receiving my brand new bike on January 28th 2017, I have been reading the operators manual about the recommended type of fuel to use and I have pasted it below.

Recommended fuel:
Regular unleaded gasoline (Gasohol(E10) acceptable)
NOTICE:
Use only unleaded gasoline. The use of leaded gasoline will cause severe damage to internal engine parts, such as the valves and piston rings, as well as to the exhaust system.

Your Yamaha engine has been de- signed to use regular unleaded gasoline with a research octane number of 95 or higher. If knocking (or pinging) occurs, use a gasoline of a different brand or premium unleaded fuel. Use of unleaded fuel will extend spark plug life and reduce maintenance costs. Gasohol

There are two types of gasohol: gasohol containing ethanol and that containing methanol. Gasohol containing ethanol can be used if the ethanol con- tent does not exceed 10% (E10). Gasohol containing methanol is not recommended by Yamaha because it can cause damage to the fuel system or vehicle performance problems.



I have been using 98 and have now started hearing some knocking and popping noises. At that I have also found burnt fuel residue around the exhaust hole.
My bike has crossed the 2000km mark with its first service done as per the manual.

Now Im thinking about dropping down to 95 but before doing so, I would like to know other peoples opinions on this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
346 Posts
Changing the octane won't matter much if you're above the knock threshold. I always run 93 here in the states (different measurement) versus the recommended minimum 87, there's no performance increase etc but in really hot weather if the motor starts to run hot it can help avoid knock.

I'd rather always have extra knock threshold, than not have enough If you were really knocking (actual engine knock) decreasing the octane would only make it worse. It's likely it's just normal noises not actual engine knock unless it's extremely hot. You will always see carbon build up near the exhaust tip, most modern 4 stroke engines (including cars) do this, you should see my car with the direct injection motor, it has more carbon/soot than anything you've ever seen haha.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
86 Posts
I use whatever the premium button is at gas stations. Honestly I don't know why but it's probably due to seeing people argue about it online everywhere I look.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
232 Posts
Your Yamaha engine has been de- signed to use regular unleaded gasoline with a research octane number of 95 or higher.
I thought I was going mad when I read the abovementioned text this morning, as I've been running 91 octane since new and I was sure that's what the ownership manual recommended. However, I've now double checked my ownership manual and it does say that I should use 91 or higher.

I'm guessing that Yamaha must have upped the octane recommendation since the initial release, since we're both from the same region and the only difference I can see is the model years (2015 vs 2017).



Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 · (Edited)
I thought I was going mad when I read the abovementioned text this morning, as I've been running 91 octane since new and I was sure that's what the ownership manual recommended. However, I've now double checked my ownership manual and it does say that I should use 91 or higher.

I'm guessing that Yamaha must have upped the octane recommendation since the initial release, since we're both from the same region and the only difference I can see is the model years (2015 vs 2017).



Sent from my SM-G900I using Tapatalk
Hi Paulie.

Where are you from?

Mine is a 2016 but registered 1st in 2017.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
36 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I was riding up Morley street in New Plymouth where I live and just as I got to the sweet asphalt 90 degree bend, another R3 (red) came the other way. I was like ah **** cant give that distant hi5 slap lol.
Always wicked coming across another R3 rider
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
169 Posts
I used to use mid grade (89 octane in Canada). Made the switch so Shell 91 this spring and I notice it runs better and I get about 40kms (25 miles) more per tank.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
198 Posts
I used to use mid grade (89 octane in Canada). Made the switch so Shell 91 this spring and I notice it runs better and I get about 40kms (25 miles) more per tank.


These posts are hilarious, the R3 doesn't require anything above 87. On a track, riding to redline when it's 110F outside, I've never gotten a knock because the compression ratio of the R3 isn't close to needing even 89. Raising the octane lowers the amount of combustible fuel per liter/gallon, so any increase in efficiency or better running is simply a placebo.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
169 Posts
These posts are hilarious, the R3 doesn't require anything above 87. On a track, riding to redline when it's 110F outside, I've never gotten a knock because the compression ratio of the R3 isn't close to needing even 89. Raising the octane lowers the amount of combustible fuel per liter/gallon, so any increase in efficiency or better running is simply a placebo.
An extra 40kms is one extra trip to work without re-fueling. So in that perspective it is convenient :)
The dealer told me I should use ethanol free fuel...and the only ethanol free fuel in Ontario is 91 octane. Maybe he was just bull shi*ting me?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
198 Posts
An extra 40kms is one extra trip to work without re-fueling. So in that perspective it is convenient :)
The dealer told me I should use ethanol free fuel...and the only ethanol free fuel in Ontario is 91 octane. Maybe he was just bull shi*ting me?

Ethanol will combine with humidity and break down into water, it's really not the most efficient stuff. It's less volatile than gasoline but it allows us to stretch our fuel supply by 10% and lower costs. If you're letting your bike sit for months then it could be a slight issue, that's why people use STABIL in the winter, to slow down this process. However the extra $$$ you pay for high octane is eliminating the less explosive ethanol but replacing it with an even more less explosive substance: octane.


When I ride on 87 octane I get around 25-35mpg on the track and 40 on the road, Yamaha says you should get 56. You saying 91 octane gets you an extra 25 miles is an increase in 6 mpg's when comparing Yamaha's 56 mpg @ 2.7 gal and adding 25 miles. I'm getting a differential of 16-30 mpg based on how I ride the bike, your 6 mpg is well within the error of riding style. Unless you have months of data, riding high octane isn't going to improve ANYTHING unless you do some serious engine mods.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
169 Posts
Ethanol will combine with humidity and break down into water, it's really not the most efficient stuff. It's less volatile than gasoline but it allows us to stretch our fuel supply by 10% and lower costs. If you're letting your bike sit for months then it could be a slight issue, that's why people use STABIL in the winter, to slow down this process. However the extra $$$ you pay for high octane is eliminating the less explosive ethanol but replacing it with an even more less explosive substance: octane.


When I ride on 87 octane I get around 25-35mpg on the track and 40 on the road, Yamaha says you should get 56. You saying 91 octane gets you an extra 25 miles is an increase in 6 mpg's when comparing Yamaha's 56 mpg @ 2.7 gal and adding 25 miles. I'm getting a differential of 16-30 mpg based on how I ride the bike, your 6 mpg is well within the error of riding style. Unless you have months of data, riding high octane isn't going to improve ANYTHING unless you do some serious engine mods.
I appreciate your input. I will continue using 91 octane for another 1000kms to collect more data on usage. Now I am confused why the guy are Yamaha said to "only use" ethanol free gas (premium) for the R3. This makes me wonder if they even know what they are talking about. They aren't gaining any profit from telling customers to use 91 octane.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
198 Posts
I appreciate your input. I will continue using 91 octane for another 1000kms to collect more data on usage. Now I am confused why the guy are Yamaha said to "only use" ethanol free gas (premium) for the R3. This makes me wonder if they even know what they are talking about. They aren't gaining any profit from telling customers to use 91 octane.
It could be ignorance or wanting to make their bikes look better than they are. My dealer for instance knows all about Yamaha bikes but nothing about actually making them go fast. He was confused why I would run a smaller chain (less rotation mass) and had no idea that there were local racing/track day organizations. If your job is to sell bikes to people, shouldn't you know what they are likely going to do with the bike?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
346 Posts
]On a track, riding to redline when it's 110F outside, I've never gotten a knock because the compression ratio of the R3 isn't close to needing even 89. Raising the octane lowers the amount of combustible fuel per liter/gallon, so any increase in efficiency or better running is simply a placebo.
Just because YOU didn't see knock doesn't mean someone else will all motors and AFR's vary by setup. What were you data logging with? I'm guessing you must've had a PCV or a tuner because I'm unaware of any knock sensor on these bikes, there's no real way to tell if you had knock, it doesn't have to be obviously noticeable unless it's so bad it's major detonation.

Also there's not less combustible fuel per gallon, that's silly that happens with gasahol/ethanol because there's less BTU's in the fuel & requires more fuel to get the same combustion temperature/event. In lab tests it actually has been tested to be more efficient but only up to ~3% -- it's imperceptible, but it's definitely not less efficient just had more resistance to detonation.

Now if you WERE getting detonation, it would decrease your fuel economy (down on power, not efficient by sparking at TDC)... Higher octane just makes it more difficult to ignite, period.

Compression ratio is only one factor, what matters is combustion temperature - higher ratios just increase this. A compression ratio of 11.2 on the R3 is actually quite high compared to most cars - it's the tune/ECU that's altered as it's more on the conservative side that prevents knock. Turbo cars use low compression ratios all the time, but still require premium, because there's extra heat induced from the turbocharger from the intake temp (BAT - boosted air temp) -- it's all about combustion temperature which is made up of a huge number of factors.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
198 Posts
Just because YOU didn't see knock doesn't mean someone else will all motors and AFR's vary by setup. What were you data logging with? I'm guessing you must've had a PCV or a tuner because I'm unaware of any knock sensor on these bikes, there's no real way to tell if you had knock, it doesn't have to be obviously noticeable unless it's so bad it's major detonation.

Also there's not less combustible fuel per gallon, that's silly that happens with gasahol/ethanol because there's less BTU's in the fuel & requires more fuel to get the same combustion temperature/event. In lab tests it actually has been tested to be more efficient but only up to ~3% -- it's imperceptible, but it's definitely not less efficient just had more resistance to detonation.

Now if you WERE getting detonation, it would decrease your fuel economy (down on power, not efficient by sparking at TDC)... Higher octane just makes it more difficult to ignite, period.

Compression ratio is only one factor, what matters is combustion temperature - higher ratios just increase this. A compression ratio of 11.2 on the R3 is actually quite high compared to most cars - it's the tune/ECU that's altered as it's more on the conservative side that prevents knock. Turbo cars use low compression ratios all the time, but still require premium, because there's extra heat induced from the turbocharger from the intake temp (BAT - boosted air temp) -- it's all about combustion temperature which is made up of a huge number of factors.
You're right, just because I don't get a knock doesn't mean others wont, however I'm almost exclusively riding my R3 at the highest of it's potential, and if I'm not getting it there, most people wont on the average day out and about.

I got lost in your second paragraph here, not sure exactly what you're trying to say. Ethanol fuel is less combustible than non but I think we both agree on that. Actually adding ethanol increases the octane level
Where the octane number is raised by blending in ethanol, energy content per volume is reduced. Ethanol BTUs can be compared with gasoline BTUs in heat of combustion tables.
When you say "in lab tests IT actually has been tested", what do you mean by it? I'm just trying to understand your argument here. I think you're saying that having higher octane levels does not make the fuel less powerful and my argument is that if there are more hydrocarbons in the fuel (increasing octane level) then they are taking up space that would otherwise be the more explosive fuel.

Higher octane doesn't make it harder to ignite, it raises the pressure at which the fuel will spontaneously combust. For your low compression turbo cars, even if the compression RATIO is low, if you start with 20 PSI and have an 10:1 compression ratio, you're at 200 PSI TDC, but if you start at a naturally aspirated 15 PSI and have 10:1 compression you end up with 150 PSI TDC. Notice how a little intake pressure can add to a LOT of pressure TDC?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
346 Posts
You're right, just because I don't get a knock doesn't mean others wont, however I'm almost exclusively riding my R3 at the highest of it's potential, and if I'm not getting it there, most people wont on the average day out and about.

I got lost in your second paragraph here, not sure exactly what you're trying to say. Ethanol fuel is less combustible than non but I think we both agree on that. Actually adding ethanol increases the octane level

Higher octane doesn't make it harder to ignite, it raises the pressure at which the fuel will spontaneously combust. For your low compression turbo cars, even if the compression RATIO is low, if you start with 20 PSI and have an 10:1 compression ratio, you're at 200 PSI TDC, but if you start at a naturally aspirated 15 PSI and have 10:1 compression you end up with 150 PSI TDC. Notice how a little intake pressure can add to a LOT of pressure TDC?
Yes we both 100% agree ethanol fuel is less combustible, I mentioned you get less BTU's of power per gallon/liter which means it's less volatile. Although any fuel injected engine compensates this with STFT/LTFT values by injecting more fuel to get the same AFR.

I was strictly talking about octane regardless of ethanol content assuming all octane levels have up to 10% ethanol, period. Higher octane does make it more resistant to ignition that's the entire point. You even said it yourself "raises the pressure at which fuel will spontaneously combust" - Although it's NOT pressure it's combustion TEMPERATURE, period pressure is only *one* factor of many.

You want to see a real world example that can prove this un-disputed? Go remove an intercooler from a turbo car, the pressure will only change ~3psi and the tune should be changed to accommodate so you keep the same pressure (remove all variables). You WILL see knock - not due to pressure but because your Boost Air Temperature (BAT) is extremely high which is why all turbo cars have intercoolers. It reduces heat to keep knock at bay, otherwise they'd be useless or you'd have to run methanol/ethanol mixes to displace the heat in the combustion cylinder to reduce the knock.

My entire point is, it's not pressure, it's combustion temperature that dictates knock (pre-ignition) - this is fact and compression ratios are only one minor part of this. While our bikes are not turbocharged it doesn't matter, it very easily explains a lot about knock people have no idea about, I've listed a few articles below by a very reputable tuner in Canada. Go ahead and call him up and ask :). Notice how both of these articles talk about knock in relation to heat and no mention of compression ratio, cylinder pressure, dynamic compression ratio, they're all one part of what turns into cylinder heat, which is what causes pre-ignition.

http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/e85-blends-in-the-mazda-disi-and-ford-ecoboost/
http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/the-effects-of-intake-air-temperatures-on-turbocharged-vehicles/
 
1 - 20 of 55 Posts
Top