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Interesting Comparison R3 vs R7

32K views 13 replies 4 participants last post by  KevinW 2017R3  
#1 ·
When Yamaha made the R7 it created an interesting comparison to the R3, as well as how a modded out R3 stacks up to an R7 in cost and performance - since the R7 already has great tires S22's), adjustable suspension, and significantly more power out of the box - while not being significantly heavier - with no mods done at all (so future potential is a bonus). If one throws everything at the R3, the end result is still well down on power. Putting aside dealer prep and taxes, the R7 is less costly than a fully modded R3. Further, a fully modified R3 will have a reduced retail value over a stock, or nearly stock, higher performing R7. The only liability to the R7 is it's seat height for some riders, as it sits 2.2" higher (about the height of an R3 with a Ninja 600 shock under it).

The point here is not to deride the R3, but point out that is not ultimately a performance platform. It is a relatively light, small displacement, lively handling sport bike, that is targeted for novice riders, and riders who are looking for a high value return on a low priced motorcycle, that are not focused on ultimate performance. It will never be more than that, even if you invest 75% of its value in upgrades. In stock form, for the target audience, the R3 is a great value. And, as long as mod costs are kept to a minimum, this value remains very strong, as the market segment is very active right now.

Exceptions exist for those racing in small displacement classes. However, for street riders who want higher performance, trading in a low mile, clean, unmolested R3 to move up to the R7 seems to make more sense (and will ultimately cost less) than spending $4,500 to make a $5,100 R3 worth $3,800 when it is time to move on (modded bikes have a much smaller audience, so tend to sell below pristine bone stock bikes. Dealers also favor stock over modded examples when offering trade in value). Further, the R3 used market today is very strong, so selling it to move up will not be a significant cost disadvantage, particularly to those who bought a low mileage used bike (without the dealer costs tagged onto it) from the start.

Here is a rough summary that illustrates the point:

R3
ModCostBenefit (HP)
Stock $ 5,100.00
35​
Full Exhaust w/ECU $ 1,300.00
3​
Airbox/velocity stacks $ 250.00
2.5​
Throttle body bore $ 500.00
2.5​
Total with Max Performance Mods $ 7,150.00
Levers $ 150.00
Tail tidy $ 150.00
R6 Throttle $ 30.00
Tires update $ 350.00
Fork cartridge $ 900.00
Rear shock $ 750.00
Brake pads $ 40.00
Brake lines $ 132.00
R3 Total $ 9,652.00
43​
Weight lbs
375​
-
Pound per HP
8.72​
-
Length
82.3​
-
Wheelbase
54.3​
-
Trail
3.7​
-
Rake25D-
Seat Height
30.7​
-
Fuel capacity3.7-
Mileage56-
R7
ModCostBenefit (HP)
Stock $ 8,999.00
71​
Levers $ 150.00
0​
Tail tidy $ 150.00
0​
R7 Total $ 9,299.00
71​
Summary differencesGain over R3
Weight lbs
414​
39​
Pound per HP
5.83​
-2.89​
Length
81.5​
-0.80​
Wheelbase
54.9​
0.60​
Trail
3.5​
0.20​
Rake23d40'1d20'
Seat Height
32.9​
2.20​
Fuel capacity3.4
-0.30​
Mileage58
2.00​

It appears that Yamaha anticipated the desire of many R3 owners to move up once they have got the addicting to motorcycling, so planted the R7 squarely in their path forward. Jumping on the R7 from the R3 is not going to require a significant adjustment, other than getting used to more power and a higher saddle. The R7 includes many of the features R3 modifiers are adding to their bikes... as standard. Interesting and smart marketing.

The question then is.. do you set a little aside to step up, rather than spending it on the R3 for mods, and enjoy it for what it is. Or, do you sink the money into the R3 and ultimately lose it should you decide to trade up in the future?

For me, keeping the costs of changes to the R3 as low as possible is the rule. It is not the bike to spend a lot of money on. Others will obviously see it differently - which is cool, and why bikes are such a unique hobby for us all.
 
#2 ·
My experience is based on the MT-07, as I haven't ridden an R7. But, between those bikes, I'd choose the R3. I really didn't like the power delivery of the MT-07 engine, which felt pretty flat at higher RPMs.

I know most people rave about that engine, but it just wasn't for me.

I totally agree with your post thought. Chasing power gains on such a small engine is a very expensive endeavour and it is usually better just to buy a bigger displacement bike rather than chasing increasingly expensive small power gains.

I'm seriously considering upgrading my suspension, and possibly adding a slipper clutch. But that's where my modifications would end. With work, the R3 could be one of the best handling bikes out there, but it'll never be the fastest.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
 
#3 ·
My experience is based on the MT-07, as I haven't ridden an R7. But, between those bikes, I'd choose the R3. I really didn't like the power delivery of the MT-07 engine, which felt pretty flat at higher RPMs.
...
I'm seriously considering upgrading my suspension, and possibly adding a slipper clutch. But that's where my modifications would end. With work, the R3 could be one of the best handling bikes out there, but it'll never be the fastest.
For street use, an R3 with proper setup to suit rider mass is already capable of exceeding the grip available from municipal paving. Tires will add a little, but not as much as many claim here. In 45+ years and many miles of road riding, I've never had an instance where I failed to have fun, enjoy riding, or get where I wanted to go - from a lack of spending on suspension parts. Some of the most fun I've had is on stock bikes with truly crap tires, and suspension components that make what's on bikes today look like MotoGP prototype gear. The R3, to me, illustrates just how spoiled we are with truly capable factory gear, at amazing prices.

I've updated the rear shock to a factory '19 part, and swapped the fork springs to a higher rate Traxxion set. I could spend two grand on the cartridges, rear shock, and tires... but it wouldn't add to my enjoyment for the purpose I chose the R3 over other options to serve. Part of the enjoyment is how much fun it is to ride, and how little I spent to get that. It feels like a cheat, as the bang for buck is so great.

For me personally, if I wanted to have $10k+ parked in the garage, it would not be an R3 wrapped in bolted-on aftermarket doo dads, it would be an Aprilia Tuano or RS 660, they are both loaded, require zero mods, and are stunning lookers. The R7 is good... but not that good.

Consider this: In 1977, a Kawasaki KZ650 made 49 HP at 8000, weighed 498 pounds, rode on skinny bias ply tube filled junk rubber, pulled 0-60 in 4.9 seconds, the quarter in 14s, cornered okay for the day, but would never be described as nimble, and had a top speed of 108. Its price then was $2000, which is $9400 in 2022 money. The R3 is only a tick slower 0-60 (5.1), as fast in the 1/4 (14.1s), has a top speed of 115+, is fuel injected, water cooled, digitally controlled, nimble, and weighs 125 pounds less... at a price that is nearly 1/2 what that KZ cost. I enjoyed my days on KZ Kawasaki's, from 650 to hopped up 1150, but the little R3 is by far superior in riding experience to every one of them, in basically stock trim.

So, you might see why, from my old man's perspective, I don't feel compelled to spend more for subtle incremental gains. For the price of that KZ in 2022 money, the R7 looks like a bargain of the century, and the Tuano a lottery win!
 
#4 ·
By coincidence, I sat on a Tuono 660 in the dealer's yesterday. (My Street Triple was in there getting its 80,000 km service.) It's definitely a bike that will be on my shortlist if I ever replace my Street Triple. As long as it stays reliable, I'll be keeping it though. I'm certainly in no hurry to see the back of it.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
 
#5 · (Edited)
By coincidence, I sat on a Tuono 660 in the dealer's yesterday. (My Street Triple was in there getting its 80,000 km service.) It's definitely a bike that will be on my shortlist if I ever replace my Street Triple. As long as it stays reliable, I'll be keeping it though. I'm certainly in no hurry to see the back of it.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
The reason I come back to the Aprilia 660 twins, is that they share a similar power curve shape as the R3, which I enjoy. Tractable and easy to modulate at low revs, then quick at the top. June Cleaver around town in the company of cage dwellers, then Ronda Rousey ("I like punching people in the face"), when the rev counter winds above 8 grand. That schizoid personality provides variety, adding to the fun quotient. The R7 has great initial grunt on the bottom, making promises it can't keep as the revs grow, making it feel a little flat. It's strong, but not as entertaining. That said.. If I had to buy either today, I'd probably go with the R7, as the 2k price premium and sparser support network for the Aprilia detracts from the total ownership thing. The R7 is certainly capable enough for the riding I do. Thankfully, I'm not in the market right now.
 
#6 ·
I'm not interested in the R7 as it has very low clip-ons and they get old really fast. I've improved all 10 bikes I've owned in 30-some years. You don't do it for cost considerations. You do it to have a more enjoyable motorcycle.
One intangible about motorcycles is how they make you feel. I think it has something to do with the vibrations and sounds they emit and the seat and your posture and how it fits you and how pleasing the dash is to look at. Some bikes are just more me than others.
 
#7 ·
When Yamaha made the R7 it created an interesting comparison to the R3, as well as how a modded out R3 stacks up to an R7 in cost and performance - since the R7 already has great tires S22's), adjustable suspension, and significantly more power out of the box - while not being significantly heavier - with no mods done at all (so future potential is a bonus). If one throws everything at the R3, the end result is still well down on power. Putting aside dealer prep and taxes, the R7 is less costly than a fully modded R3. Further, a fully modified R3 will have a reduced retail value over a stock, or nearly stock, higher performing R7. The only liability to the R7 is it's seat height for some riders, as it sits 2.2" higher (about the height of an R3 with a Ninja 600 shock under it).

The point here is not to deride the R3, but point out that is not ultimately a performance platform. It is a relatively light, small displacement, lively handling sport bike, that is targeted for novice riders, and riders who are looking for a high value return on a low priced motorcycle, that are not focused on ultimate performance. It will never be more than that, even if you invest 75% of its value in upgrades. In stock form, for the target audience, the R3 is a great value. And, as long as mod costs are kept to a minimum, this value remains very strong, as the market segment is very active right now.

Exceptions exist for those racing in small displacement classes. However, for street riders who want higher performance, trading in a low mile, clean, unmolested R3 to move up to the R7 seems to make more sense (and will ultimately cost less) than spending $4,500 to make a $5,100 R3 worth $3,800 when it is time to move on (modded bikes have a much smaller audience, so tend to sell below pristine bone stock bikes. Dealers also favor stock over modded examples when offering trade in value). Further, the R3 used market today is very strong, so selling it to move up will not be a significant cost disadvantage, particularly to those who bought a low mileage used bike (without the dealer costs tagged onto it) from the start.

Here is a rough summary that illustrates the point:

R3
ModCostBenefit (HP)
Stock$ 5,100.00
35​
Full Exhaust w/ECU$ 1,300.00
3​
Airbox/velocity stacks$ 250.00
2.5​
Throttle body bore$ 500.00
2.5​
Total with Max Performance Mods$ 7,150.00
Levers$ 150.00
Tail tidy$ 150.00
R6 Throttle$ 30.00
Tires update$ 350.00
Fork cartridge$ 900.00
Rear shock$ 750.00
Brake pads$ 40.00
Brake lines$ 132.00
R3 Total$ 9,652.00
43​
Weight lbs
375​
-
Pound per HP
8.72​
-
Length
82.3​
-
Wheelbase
54.3​
-
Trail
3.7​
-
Rake25D-
Seat Height
30.7​
-
Fuel capacity3.7-
Mileage56-
R7
ModCostBenefit (HP)
Stock$ 8,999.00
71​
Levers$ 150.00
0​
Tail tidy$ 150.00
0​
R7 Total$ 9,299.00
71​
Summary differencesGain over R3
Weight lbs
414​
39​
Pound per HP
5.83​
-2.89​
Length
81.5​
-0.80​
Wheelbase
54.9​
0.60​
Trail
3.5​
0.20​
Rake23d40'1d20'
Seat Height
32.9​
2.20​
Fuel capacity3.4
-0.30​
Mileage58
2.00​

It appears that Yamaha anticipated the desire of many R3 owners to move up once they have got the addicting to motorcycling, so planted the R7 squarely in their path forward. Jumping on the R7 from the R3 is not going to require a significant adjustment, other than getting used to more power and a higher saddle. The R7 includes many of the features R3 modifiers are adding to their bikes... as standard. Interesting and smart marketing.

The question then is.. do you set a little aside to step up, rather than spending it on the R3 for mods, and enjoy it for what it is. Or, do you sink the money into the R3 and ultimately lose it should you decide to trade up in the future?

For me, keeping the costs of changes to the R3 as low as possible is the rule. It is not the bike to spend a lot of money on. Others will obviously see it differently - which is cool, and why bikes are such a unique hobby for us all.
I like your post... While I agree with the numbers you posted, I'm not sure it's a fair comparison though? I totally understand what you are trying to communicate.... The R7 is a much better "base platform" for a person wanting to ride an essentially a "stock bike". I own both an R3, and an FZ-07 (the same CP2 motor). I have done almost identical mods to both bikes. Comparing apples-to apples, the cost to modify the bikes is about the same.

Comparing the stock suspension on the R7, compared to aftermarket shock & cartridge forks on an R3 is like comparing Apples to Watermelons? It just isn't a fair comparison. I'm not trying to be a "troll", or start an online argument.

The CP2 motor is probably the BEST motor I've every experienced! I think Yamaha did a FANTASTIC job with the R7, and I'm sure they will sell out VERY fast. I've done less to my R3 than you posted, but more to my FZ-07 (with the same CP2 motor)..... Essentially, I've got WAY too much invested in BOTH my bikes. If I could do it over again, I would definitely do things differently-

Originally I built my FZ-07 to be my dedicated "track-only" bike, and it was for several years. I bought a 2019 R3 as my street bike, and only upgraded the tires and suspension. It was an AWSOME street bike, and made me smile every time I rode it. Last summer, I unfortunately had a catastrophic shock failure on my K-Tech shock on my "07". Due to covid/supply chain issues, my shock was going to be "down" for 4-6 weeks. I'm a rider coach at a local track-day organization, and I needed a bike to ride on track. I made the difficult choice to ride my "street" R3 on a big track..... I knew in my mind that I was NOT going to like it much. I couldn't have been more wrong!!!! I put the lights, and plate back on my "07", and made my R3 my new dedicated "track-only" bike. It's just more fun, even on a big track!!! I then went "all-in" on setting up my R3 for the track only.

Dollar for dollar, to mod both the bikes will cost about the same, for the same mods on each bike. I have a total investment of about $12K on my "07", and about $9K into my R3. Both bikes are modded nearly identical. If I could do it over again, I would have left my "07" mostly stock, and only spent the money on the R3. I know- "first-world-problems".... I'm very happy with both my bikes, and have too much invested in each of them to ever sell either of them-
 
#8 · (Edited)
I like your post... While I agree with the numbers you posted, I'm not sure it's a fair comparison though? I totally understand what you are trying to communicate.... The R7 is a much better "base platform" for a person wanting to ride an essentially a "stock bike". I own both an R3, and an FZ-07 (the same CP2 motor). I have done almost identical mods to both bikes. Comparing apples-to apples, the cost to modify the bikes is about the same.

Comparing the stock suspension on the R7, compared to aftermarket shock & cartridge forks on an R3 is like comparing Apples to Watermelons? It just isn't a fair comparison. I'm not trying to be a "troll", or start an online argument.

The CP2 motor is probably the BEST motor I've every experienced! I think Yamaha did a FANTASTIC job with the R7, and I'm sure they will sell out VERY fast. I've done less to my R3 than you posted, but more to my FZ-07 (with the same CP2 motor)..... Essentially, I've got WAY too much invested in BOTH my bikes. If I could do it over again, I would definitely do things differently-

Originally I built my FZ-07 to be my dedicated "track-only" bike, and it was for several years. I bought a 2019 R3 as my street bike, and only upgraded the tires and suspension. It was an AWSOME street bike, and made me smile every time I rode it. Last summer, I unfortunately had a catastrophic shock failure on my K-Tech shock on my "07". Due to covid/supply chain issues, my shock was going to be "down" for 4-6 weeks. I'm a rider coach at a local track-day organization, and I needed a bike to ride on track. I made the difficult choice to ride my "street" R3 on a big track..... I knew in my mind that I was NOT going to like it much. I couldn't have been more wrong!!!! I put the lights, and plate back on my "07", and made my R3 my new dedicated "track-only" bike. It's just more fun, even on a big track!!! I then went "all-in" on setting up my R3 for the track only.

Dollar for dollar, to mod both the bikes will cost about the same, for the same mods on each bike. I have a total investment of about $12K on my "07", and about $9K into my R3. Both bikes are modded nearly identical. If I could do it over again, I would have left my "07" mostly stock, and only spent the money on the R3. I know- "first-world-problems".... I'm very happy with both my bikes, and have too much invested in each of them to ever sell either of them-
Interesting perspective. I know you are not a troll - but do enjoy friendly discussion.

I will say that comparing a modded R7 to a modified R3 doesn't make sense. The point I attempted to make is that the R7 in stock trim will produce greater performance than the R3 in modified form, in almost every measurement, for street applications. For what you end up sinking into the R7, you could own a Tuano, or an RS660 which has all the goodies and more power, stock, plus much more - or in many cases, just go for the

I've wasted a lot of money on this parade of mods, so tend to seek the best ride for the dollar, tune it conservatively, then trade up rather that mess up, as nothing sucks more than having a bike worth so much less than what's sunk into it. My most recent debacle KZ650 chewed up $7K in mods plus hundreds of hours, and was worth less than the bike I started with. Left stock, I would have made a profit on it. I'm done with all that.

There are too many great new toys to be explored to be tied down. The R3 does a great job in near stock condition, for my purposes. At some point I'll shift it off for another, perhaps an Italian job, or??? who knows.

I don't do track days anymore, so our perspectives differ, I respect that fully